what does ABS feel like on 390? - Page 2 - KTM Duke 390 Forum
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post #11 of 20 Old 05-13-2016, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kinky View Post
I remember that Kawi triple. (At the time, I was pulling wrenches at a Kwack dealer. I had a deal going with the guys who bought these things:
Ya get a very special service and checkup- if Ya let me blast it on the freeway that runs through Ottawa?
Such a deal! The acceleration was awesome! (The brakes were not.) At over the 'ton'- one footpeg vibrated so bad, that you could not keep your foot on it!
Scary! Take a look at an exploded drawing of that front fork assembly, (it was primitive!)
I got friends, who bought muscle cars with ABS- years ago, And of course- they gotta demonstrate: Find an open stretch of straight highway, and just......jump on the binders! Those cars juddered so violently! I was not impressed. (And my 'boy racer' buds are all saying: " Those things are for pussies-anyway!"
Not so- this Duke ABS! Silky smooth- no shake at all! (It took slightly longer to stop- than without the ABS. (But locking up the wheels is not a good idea!
This here ABS does not let you do that! Have not tried them out on glare ice-yet. Perhaps next winter,,,,,,,,
Very important safety feature!
As I recall- the very first ABS braking systems- were developed by a U.K. firm. called Maxaret. (They used a Royal Enfield motorcycle with outriggers on it. ABS was developed for planes- not bikes.)
We call it Antiskid in the business. Very rarely needed, but if you do get into the antiskid, you can feel the rudder pedals shake.

A couple years ago, I did a California Superbike School two day class in Vegas. They had a BMW set up with outriggers. The drill was to get up a good head of speed and get on the brakes until you get into the ABS. It was a great demonstration.

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post #12 of 20 Old 05-13-2016, 07:34 PM
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Tony, Your mention of the linked brakes on a Honda gives me an opening to proclaim with pride that Moto Guzzi invented and introduced the "Integral Braking System" in the mid 70's. Both of my Guzzi's - a 1980 and a 1984 - are equipped with this system, which uses the foot brake pedal to actuate the rear caliper and the left front caliper together. This enables hard, drama-free stops using only the foot pedal, with much less brake dive than with conventional systems. With the integral brakes, the bike simply squats, as both wheels are braked simultaneously, like on a car. If you want to stop even harder, then there is the right front caliper, operated by a conventional master cylinder. It is a great system, and represented at the time a major leap forward in moto safety. It's the next best thing to ABS, which was not available at that era. Some Guzzi riders "delink" the Integral System, because it is different from the conventional brakes they are accustomed to and it feels strange to them. But if you give it a chance, you will likely come away with the feeling that the Integral System offers the best brakes you have used short of an ABS system. I would never consider changing the Integral System on my Guzzis.

Subsequent to Guzzi's introduction of the Integral System, other manufacturers, most notably BMW and Honda, have adopted the same principle, usually a bit more complex than Guzzi's system in execution.
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Cheers, Will

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Last edited by Diploman; 05-13-2016 at 07:37 PM.
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post #13 of 20 Old 05-13-2016, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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Guys - in no way was it an emergency brake situation. I was caught slightly off guard but the van was approximately 15 metres away and I stepped on the back brake accordingly. I did step on it however.

So if the Dukes braking is silky smooth what is creating the juddering ?
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post #14 of 20 Old 05-13-2016, 09:57 PM
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The "juddering" you feel in the brake pedal is the activation of the ABS. The system, in response to signals from the wheel speed sensor, detects that the rear wheel is beginning to lock up and skid. The ABS control unit then releases hydraulic pressure to the caliper, so the wheel can regain traction. This cycle then repeats several times per second and is felt as a pulsing in the brake lever.

The rear wheel, lightly loaded in a braking situation, reaches the ABS lockup threshold easily. The front wheel, where the weight loading and significant braking takes place, is much more difficult to lock up - the ABS will engage when the tire begins to chirp under severe braking, close to doing a stoppie. The hand lever then pulses in the same manner as the foot pedal. The pulsing sensation in the current, quite evolved Bosch ABS is much less intense and evident than that of earlier, less sophisticated ABS systems.
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Cheers, Will

"If you don't know where you're going, you might wind up somewhere else."
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post #15 of 20 Old 05-14-2016, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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Super informative as always, thanks diplo.

So this juddering basically happened straight away. It wasn't even under too much force. Was just wondering if I should re adjust to give me more actual braking power before the brakes think I'm smashing it down.

I did lower it a lot because I'm 6ft 4 and my feet are at quite an angle, meaning I have to lift my entire leg to brake when it was new.

This has occurred a few times actually, just this time I felt it for longer.

Thanks for the replies
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post #16 of 20 Old 05-14-2016, 02:32 PM
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You should adjust your brake pedal to what is comfortable to you but it's my understanding it will not have an effect on ABS actuation.

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post #17 of 20 Old 05-14-2016, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke123 View Post
Guys - in no way was it an emergency brake situation. I was caught slightly off guard but the van was approximately 15 metres away and I stepped on the back brake accordingly. I did step on it however.

So if the Dukes braking is silky smooth what is creating the juddering ?
I think the point is this "stepped on the back brake accordingly". SOP should be, "applied the front brake accordingly".
Rear only breaking is not a desired habit for motorcycle control and safety.

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post #18 of 20 Old 05-14-2016, 03:01 PM Thread Starter
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Interestingly I was taught to apply slight back brake first then gently squeeze on the front for a smooth stop.

I think you are all misinterpretating the situation. I did what I was taught, gently stepped on the back brake (which activated the ABS) with intent to apply front brake as well.

This is why I'm concerned and this is the point. With gentle pressure to my back brake the ABS is coming on which makes me think there isn't much room for braking in the way I set it up so the computer simply thinks that I am applying all of the back brake.

This is my query.
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post #19 of 20 Old 05-14-2016, 03:02 PM
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123, Since you are obviously quite long-legged, you might want to adjust the brake pedal to an angle beyond what the stock configuration allows. The pedal actuates the brake via a simple rod (with lock screw) threaded into a clevis attached to the pedal. When the rod is fully screwed into the clevis, you are at the limit of downward angle possible with the stock setup. To angle the brake pedal down more requires removing the rod from the clevis and shortening it by a centimeter or more. The working end of the rod also needs to be smoothed and rounded as stock. With this technique you should be able to get the lever into a position comfortable for your foot.

If the lever position is more natural for your foot, you should be able to use the rear brake with more sensitivity and better control. This will not, however, affect engagement of the ABS. The Duke's rear wheel reaches its threshold of traction very quickly when using the brake pedal, no matter at what angle it may be set, and you will still feel the ABS pulsing.

Cheers, Will

"If you don't know where you're going, you might wind up somewhere else."
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post #20 of 20 Old 05-14-2016, 03:22 PM
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123, You need to stop worrying so much about the rear brake and put your focus on the front. In any serious braking situation, the best the rear brake can do is add a little stabilization to the overall braking operation. In terms of actual braking, the rear brake is inconsequential. As weight transfers to the front and off the rear wheel, the available rear traction goes to low/minimal/zero, depending on the severity of the braking. The onus shifts to the front wheel for 85/95/100 percent of the braking. The rear brake has almost no role at all once the front wheel is fully loaded in a heavy braking situation.

Not to disparage what you may have been taught, IMO, there is nothing to be gained - except losing precious microseconds - by delaying application of your front brake (ie, the real brake that stops the bike) so that the insignificant rear brake can be applied first. Best bet is to apply both simultaneously (as if it were a Guzzi Integral System). But the front brake is where you should reflexively go first and always on a bike like the Duke with conventional brakes.

Cheers, Will

"If you don't know where you're going, you might wind up somewhere else."
--Yogi Berra

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1980 Moto Guzzi V50 II cafe racer
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