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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My bike is a 2020 duke 390
Ok I took out the cat and pre silencer and am using the stock muffler. Do I need to let it idle for 15 minutes so it can "re learn" or is it ok to just ride it? I have a powertronics ecu coming and is the stock maps on it ok for my exhaust mods and I plan on upgrading the air filter and airbox lid to a coober.
Thanks!
 

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Hi Ausher, and welcome to the forum,
I'm not too informed on the second-Gen (your) bikes but I believe the 15 min re-learn procedure does not work on your bike.
Either it does not work at all or the time to run has changed, probably Marius can tell.
In general, when installing a PowerTRONIC the standard map should be fine.
If you like to fine-tune the piggyback though you may want to download their free software R-tunes (Downloads - PowerTRONIC) in order to alter fuel and ignition settings.
 

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Here's my post on the subject:
 

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As noted the time changed to ten minutes on the gen 2 bikes. It resets the adaptive ECU to the default setup. Obviously since it’s running at idle it’s not going to generate an accurate map of the new configuration - that happens as it’s ridden. This is also the reason why it’s not automatically a good idea to use this procedure because your existing map has adapted to your location and you may get to the final map faster from that point than the stock starting point.

The biggest issue however is assuming that the stock map is capable of adjusting to your proposed configuration. My personal opinion is that most people will get away with it but I wouldn’t recommend it. If the stock ECU had the capacity to make those adjustments you wouldn’t need to bypass it with a piggyback ECU which is what you plan.
 

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2015 Duke 390, PowerTRONIC Piggyback, and my monkey mechanic skills ^^
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Hi, i wanna hop onto the PowerTRONIC train and just let you know that they are very active in the support department.
Contact them about your situation and they'll probably have a map for you for exactly your use case as soon as they sit down at their desk, those people are amazing!

Generally they told me that airbox changes are fine with the PT and the adjustments the ECU can still do underneath it, but the changes to your exhaust seem comparable with changing the system to a free-flow exhaust, in which case i would use their "exhaust" map to start with. Your bike isn't going to flat out break though, mine is running great after having gone about 10'000kms with a free-flow exhaust and stock ECU before i just went for it and got a PT (the cops do NOT like Piggybacks here in Switzerland :p )

-EDIT: Mine is a 2015 gen 1 though so as Mirius pointed out, add however many grains of salt you feel comfortable with.

Again, the people at PT will get you sorted out in no time though!
 

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Your bike isn't going to flat out break though, mine is running great after having gone about 10'000kms with a free-flow exhaust and stock ECU before i just went for it and got a PT (the cops do NOT like Piggybacks here in Switzerland :p ).
You might want to qualify whether you are running a gen 1 or 2 before suggesting not worrying about piggybacks to gen 2 riders.
 

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I'm not telling him not to worry about a piggyback, i'm saying that the powerTRONIC can compensate for more than the stock ECU could even if it's not on the "exhaust" map. You'll notice he's talking about the stock map on his soon-to-arrive piggyback ECU, not the stock map on a stock ECU. Sorry i didn't make my point very clear.

About my experience running a FF exhaust without a piggyback though, well realistically the exhaust just isn't going to change the AF ratio enough to do any damage as long as you don't also change the intake side of things, no matter what gen Duke you have.
****, for a couple rides until the piggyback does arrive? As long as no Himalayans are conquered i simply don't see a reason to worry.

HOWEVER!
Please do educate me if i'm missing some huge difference or detail that puts someone on a gen2 in danger of blowing up an engine, i never found out a difference in the engine itself aside from the changed valve clearances and smoother mapping; i guess not many people have had a chance to take apart both generations... Shouldn't the adjustment range of the ECU be the same if it's the same dang ECU? Am i missing something?

P.S. Love your videos on your Duke btw, that thing is VERY good looking :)

P.P.S. You're right about a disclaimer though, i'm editing my first post.
 

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I'm not telling him not to worry about a piggyback, i'm saying that the powerTRONIC can compensate for more than the stock ECU could even if it's not on the "exhaust" map. You'll notice he's talking about the stock map on his soon-to-arrive piggyback ECU, not the stock map on a stock ECU. Sorry i didn't make my point very clear.

About my experience running a FF exhaust without a piggyback though, well realistically the exhaust just isn't going to change the AF ratio enough to do any damage as long as you don't also change the intake side of things, no matter what gen Duke you have.
****, for a couple rides until the piggyback does arrive? As long as no Himalayans are conquered i simply don't see a reason to worry.

HOWEVER!
Please do educate me if i'm missing some huge difference or detail that puts someone on a gen2 in danger of blowing up an engine, i never found out a difference in the engine itself aside from the changed valve clearances and smoother mapping; i guess not many people have had a chance to take apart both generations... Shouldn't the adjustment range of the ECU be the same if it's the same dang ECU? Am i missing something?

P.S. Love your videos on your Duke btw, that thing is VERY good looking :)

P.P.S. You're right about a disclaimer though, i'm editing my first post.
Lol and thanks.

The ECU is the difference mainly and gen 2 meet higher emissions standards. I’ve not yet found anyone who can reliably say how much that changes it because the ECU is locked on the gen 2s. We know newer emissions standards are an issue to achieve from the Audi debacle. It would be logical in my view if there is an upper limit to the fuel map above which it’s going to fail the emissions standards. Stock build, not an issue. Start increasing the air flow through the engine and at some point you are going to need to go beyond that upper limit. Grey area racing specify a piggyback with the open airbox and they know a lot more about it than me.

Bottom line, I’m trying to be careful about suggesting people are ok to make large mods and everything will be ok. Even if I’ve found it’s ok. Engine rebuilds are pretty expensive, more than a piggyback, just because some guy in the internet said it would be fine.
 

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2015 Duke 390, PowerTRONIC Piggyback, and my monkey mechanic skills ^^
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Lol and thanks.


The ECU is the difference mainly and gen 2 meet higher emissions standards. I’ve not yet found anyone who can reliably say how much that changes it because the ECU is locked on the gen 2s. We know newer emissions standards are an issue to achieve from the Audi debacle. It would be logical in my view if there is an upper limit to the fuel map above which it’s going to fail the emissions standards. Stock build, not an issue. Start increasing the air flow through the engine and at some point you are going to need to go beyond that upper limit. Grey area racing specify a piggyback with the open airbox and they know a lot more about it than me.

Bottom line, I’m trying to be careful about suggesting people are ok to make large mods and everything will be ok. Even if I’ve found it’s ok. Engine rebuilds are pretty expensive, more than a piggyback, just because some guy in the internet said it would be fine.
Noted, a different ECU configuration can be a big deal. I wish the ECU in our dukes were a bit more open to probing so we know what's going on inside!

I do want to touch on the difference between exhaust and intake though, reducing backpressure in the exhaust is not nearly as big a difference in airflow as opening up an airbox would be, hence why grey area racing tell you to get a piggyback with the airbox but most people doing only an exhaust mod don't worry about tuning anything. It really won't change much and is not that large a mod.

In the end i guess we'll agree to disagree and let OP choose if he wants to take a small risk. My impression is that cautious bike owners won't take a barely year-old, warrantied bike and de-cat and de-pre-muffler them along with planning an airbox and fueling overhaul ^^
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Yes. I was very hesitant to doing all this to a bike that's 6 months old.
I got the powertronics, quick shifter and map switch all installed. Did the 10 minute idle relearn. Right now I haven't done anything with the Stock airbox lid and air filter. It's definitely running more rich. I haven't ridden it yet because It decided to snow here. Thanks for all the helpful information.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
One more question... Does the kickstand have to be up for the idle relearn? I did prop the bike up so it was upright and not leaning.
 

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Noted, a different ECU configuration can be a big deal. I wish the ECU in our dukes were a bit more open to probing so we know what's going on inside!

I do want to touch on the difference between exhaust and intake though, reducing backpressure in the exhaust is not nearly as big a difference in airflow as opening up an airbox would be, hence why grey area racing tell you to get a piggyback with the airbox but most people doing only an exhaust mod don't worry about tuning anything. It really won't change much and is not that large a mod.

In the end i guess we'll agree to disagree and let OP choose if he wants to take a small risk. My impression is that cautious bike owners won't take a barely year-old, warrantied bike and de-cat and de-pre-muffler them along with planning an airbox and fueling overhaul ^^
The issue is not so much the OP. Most of the people who read the thread are not even forum members. They will pick it up on a browser search to see if they need a piggyback.
There are plenty of posts here and elsewhere to show that people are looking for cheap upgrades and worry about being ripped off, questioning why they need an expensive piggyback. And yes they are looking at full decats with airbox upgrades, quite a few posts on here and I’ve had quite a lot of questions on it from my videos.
If they see posts especially in a specialist forum where people are saying that they’ve ridden high miles with mods without piggyback then they will be straight on to Aliexpress to buy $5 high flow systems. Some of the people who do the mods haven’t even reached first service.
I initially had the same view about people making sensible and informed choices - you can see it in my first exhaust videos. Experience has taught me otherwise.
 

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One more question... Does the kickstand have to be up for the idle relearn? I did prop the bike up so it was upright and not leaning.
Manual makes no mention . People have opinions based on how they interpret the manual but if it was important I suspect KTM would have specified it. The manual doesn’t definitively say the bike has to be upright but most people assume so because it is upright in the preceding section of the manual.
 

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Here is the link to the post of Diploman who has always been a real help to the forum.

 

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That’s the same link as already posted. The content in it doesn’t change what the KTM manual, which is written for the KTM Technicians to follow, says.

It’s also in the comments by MJ in that thread that the manual is unclear in some places. I’m aware that people have opinions on those things, but they are opinions.
 

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Hi, i wanna hop onto the PowerTRONIC train and just let you know that they are very active in the support department.
Contact them about your situation and they'll probably have a map for you for exactly your use case as soon as they sit down at their desk, those people are amazing!

Generally they told me that airbox changes are fine with the PT and the adjustments the ECU can still do underneath it, but the changes to your exhaust seem comparable with changing the system to a free-flow exhaust, in which case i would use their "exhaust" map to start with. Your bike isn't going to flat out break though, mine is running great after having gone about 10'000kms with a free-flow exhaust and stock ECU before i just went for it and got a PT (the cops do NOT like Piggybacks here in Switzerland :p )

-EDIT: Mine is a 2015 gen 1 though so as Mirius pointed out, add however many grains of salt you feel comfortable with.

Again, the people at PT will get you sorted out in no time though!
I'm not clear about why the stock ECU wouldn't be able to compensate for a more efficient air filter and/or a free-flow exhaust. Wouldn't the MAF and O2 sensors signal the ECU to adjust the air fuel ratio to a safe value?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I'm not clear about why the stock ECU wouldn't be able to compensate for a more efficient air filter and/or a free-flow exhaust. Wouldn't the MAF and O2 sensors signal the ECU to adjust the air fuel ratio to a safe value?
I was thinking the same thing. The maf and o2 sensor would tell the ecu what they are reading and the ecu would compensate any changes. Like in cars. Intake and exhaust are the most common upgrades people do to their cars.
 

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I was thinking the same thing. The maf and o2 sensor would tell the ecu what they are reading and the ecu would compensate any changes. Like in cars. Intake and exhaust are the most common upgrades people do to their cars.
Yes absolutely it should. So long as it’s able to make the adjustment. Even with cars larger changes require updating to a custom map. There are plenty of Evos and Subies out there with blown engines because they didn’t get the map right.

The real question is how much can the stock ECU adjust for and this is a hard question to generalise because simply where you live can affect what adjustments the stock ECU has already made to the stock map. The fact we argue on here about the right way to do the ECU reset shows how much bikes are off the factory settings as a result of the stock ECU adjusting the map.
 

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Yes absolutely it should. So long as it’s able to make the adjustment. Even with cars larger changes require updating to a custom map. There are plenty of Evos and Subies out there with blown engines because they didn’t get the map right.

The real question is how much can the stock ECU adjust for and this is a hard question to generalise because simply where you live can affect what adjustments the stock ECU has already made to the stock map. The fact we argue on here about the right way to do the ECU reset shows how much bikes are off the factory settings as a result of the stock ECU adjusting the map.
Has anyone installed a separate O2 sensor and gauge to see what the air fuel ratio is after making intake or exhaust modifications? The AFR readings at different rpm could show how well the stock ECU is adjusting to those mods and whether an ECU update is necessary.
 

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Has anyone installed a separate O2 sensor and gauge to see what the air fuel ratio is after making intake or exhaust modifications? The AFR readings at different rpm could show how well the stock ECU is adjusting to those mods and whether an ECU update is necessary.
There are a number of posts on here about people measuring. But you would really need to do it yourself. I wouldn’t recommend relying on results someone else in a different location and environment might be getting.
 
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